Thursday, March 11, 2010

APO 203 Geology -- Forum Post


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Cephalotus follicularis
Re: The cause of compromise
by Ron Dudek - Thursday, 11 March 2010, 06:39 AM


This is a bumper sticker sold on a Christian web-site that strongly promotes an old earth view. Any thoughts?
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Picture of Shelby Thomas
Re: The cause of compromise
by Shelby Thomas - Thursday, 11 March 2010, 01:02 PM
Theistic evolution on a cute little bumper sticker.

This bumper sticker makes it a little harder to get up in [intellectual =] arms against the issue, because it offers the compromise in such a friendly, easy-going way. 'Shouldn't we be okay with people believing this?' one is tempted to think. 'At least they attribute it to God...'

I think this bumper sticker underlines one of the main issues of why compromise has come all too easy. Heheh... it's all too easy!

Going against the flow, especially to the "extreme" that staying true to God's Word sometimes requires, is never easy. But in our American culture, we tend to migrate to what is more comfortable. How often we lack the courage to stand up like the men of old and fight against what is "normal." We'd be... gasp!.. looked at funny! It's just a whole lot easier to go with the flow and agree on these issues -- and put a cute little crayon bumper sticker on your car that says, "Hey! You like evolution... I like evolution... and I like God -- so you can too!" It's really depressing to see the drastic lack of valor in our Christian "warriors" today! But, I suppose we've left off our "Belt of Truth" in order to "look cool." We are no longer bound together by the steadfast Word of God, so that our loose ends can be tangled up into worldly philosophies...

But it is so easy sometimes just to let our guard down... to always be "sober and vigilant" (1 Peter 5:8) is something that takes a lot more effort than we'd really wish to put into it. Why is it so hard?

I suppose it is because, at the root, we all have a sin nature. The world is just made up of a bunch of people who's sin nature has never begun to be eroded by the grace of God in sanctification! Because of the presence of our sin nature in our minds, we often have the same thought processes as the world - a process that originates with ME and MY rights/desires. Maybe that's why it's so easy to just accept naturalistic ideas...
  • No direct, miraculous Creation gives God less credit in the subject, thus gives us more RIGHTS to our life.
  • If God didn't judge the world with a global, terminating flood, He is not as threatening to our DESIRES (especially if they're sinful.)
  • If we can rewrite/excuse Genesis, we can reinterpret the rest of the Bible into an easier-to-swallow, user-friendly version which allows us to live pretty much how we want to, regardless of God's standards and commandments.
  • Besides -- we just like to "fit in" better and not be thought of as be "living in the Dark Agesmixed" like Aslan pointed out earlier.

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Cephalotus follicularis
Re: The cause of compromise
by Ron Dudek - Thursday, 11 March 2010, 02:23 PM
Hi Shelby, Greg Neyman, an outspoken old-earther, has the following to say on his site. Your thoughts?

How to Become a Christian

"Yes, you can believe in an old earth, and become a Christian. Yes, the Word of God is inerrant, and its account of the creation story in Genesis is perfectly in line with the scientific record. God created the world, and the doctrine of salvation has nothing to do with the age of the earth. The Bible does not say, “Believe in a young earth, or be condemned to hell.”?
You may ask how you can believe in an inerrant Word and believe that the world is over 4 billion years old. You may have read all the arguments about the word “day” meaning a literal twenty-four hour period.

The Bible says a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to man (II Peter 3:8). Remember, Adam was created on the sixth day, and these “days” were as God sees days, because only God was here…not man. Can the word “day” be interpreted as anything other than a twenty-four hour period…I would argue yes, but in reality, it doesn’t matter how I interpret the word day…the question is, ‘what is a day to God’? You are already convinced that the earth is old, so you must come to the conclusion that a day for God is a long period of time. God is God of the universe, not just God of the earth. Day as a twenty-four hour period only applies if you are standing on planet earth. What is the meaning of day if you are in the middle of space? There is no day or night there, so why should we limit God to a limited twenty-four hour earth day?

So, how do you become a Christian? You begin by recognizing your human nature. It is true that we are all sinners. Romans 3:23 says,
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
And Isaiah 59:2 states,
But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.
Therefore, you are separated from God by your sinful nature. Think of it as a big gap, with you on one cliff, and God on the other, and a big chasm separating you. There are many ways people try to reach God, such as doing good deeds, or going to church. While these things are important, they will not bridge the gap between you and God. The Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9,
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
And in Proverbs 14:12,
There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
You cannot reach God by being good. Although this may seem right to you, it was never His plan. What was His plan? He did not create you and leave you without a means to come to Him. God’s remedy is the cross of Christ, and his sacrifice for our sins. I Peter 3:18 says,
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
And I Timothy 2:5,
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
And Romans 5:8,
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Jesus Christ, God’s Son, is the One that can bridge the gap between you and God. It all depends on your response to Him. You must acknowledge your sinfulness, trust in Christ’s forgiveness, and give Him control of your life. If you do that, you will have eternal life. John 3:16 says,
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
And John 5:24,
Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
You should take a moment right now, and use Jesus Christ as the bridge to get to God. Do not delay this decision, for you do not know what tomorrow may bring. You could die in an accident, and once you are dead, you will not have another chance to accept eternal life.

How do you receive Christ? Follow these simple steps:
1. Admit you are a sinner.
2. Be willing to turn from your sins (repent).
3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and rose from the grave.
4. Through prayer, invite Jesus Christ to come in and control your life through the Holy Spirit (Receive Him as Lord and Savior of your life.
How do you pray? You may do so like this.
Dear Lord Jesus,
I know that I am a sinner and need Your forgiveness. I believe that You died for my sins. I want to turn from my sins. I now invite you to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as the Lord and Savior of my life.
In Your name. Amen.
If you have prayed this prayer and trusted Christ, then the Bible says that you can be sure you have eternal life. Romans 10:13 says,
For whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
And I John 5:12-13 says,
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
What should you do next? This is just the beginning of a wonderful new life in Christ. To deepen this new life you should:
1. Read the Bible on a daily basis to learn more about Christ.
2. Talk to God every day in prayer.
3. Tell others about your new faith in Christ, and demonstrate to them your new life of love and concern for others.
4. Seek out a good church so that you can fellowship with other Christians.
Welcome to the family! I encourage you to find a good church to attend, and may God bless you as you get to know Him.

You may have other questions that are yet unanswered when it comes to creation. I encourage you to continue your research into creation. May God bless you as you come to a greater understanding of His creation, whether you believe that to be young or old."
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Picture of Shelby Thomas
Re: The cause of compromise
by Shelby Thomas - Thursday, 11 March 2010, 05:46 PM
 You asked for my thoughts, so here they are, in lavender, line by line... thoughtful
**Caution: contains sarcasm... a lot of sarcasm...** blush

How to Become a Christian
(Without actually surrendering your entire worldview to God -- especially if that surrender means you'd be subject to discomfort and being called a "Bible-thumpin'-fundamentalist-radical".)
Yes, you can believe in an old earth, and become a Christian. Yes, the Word of God is inerrant as long as it's compatible with popular science theories, and its account of the creation story in Genesis is perfectly in line with the scientific record -- which is good because I really put stock into the model that was constructed by a bunch of men who were clearly set against using any Biblical accounts in their studies. God created the world (though not in perfection, as the scientific record which I was speaking of earlier clearly shows), and the doctrine of salvation has nothing to do with the age of the earth, except for the very minor point that death preceding sin goes against everything that the Bible tells us about God's good character and love for His creation AND the fact that you can no longer trust a clear reading of the Gospel story now that you have had to creatively reinterpret Genesis to mean something that you actually feel comfortable about putting your trust in. The Bible does not say, “Believe in a young earth, or be condemned to hell.” in those exact words. Jesus has questioned the salvation of those that if one don't believe the words of Moses -- but that's a minor detail?
You may ask how you can believe in an inerrant Word and believe that the world is over 4 billion years old. (It does seem extremely contradictory, doesn't it?) You may have read all the arguments about the word “day” meaning a literal twenty-four hour period. Those arguments are really sound... but we can pretty much just excuse them anyway.

The Bible says a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to man (II Peter 3:8). So, He was talking about Christ's return, and in no way referencing Creation -- but hey! Details really don't matter in correct hermeneutics. Okay, so maybe they do... but that's beside the point. Remember, Adam was created on the sixth day, and these “days” were as God sees days, because only God was here…not man. And even though He did record the story in Genesis for MAN to reference to, He's a God of confusion -- amen? ...wait... Can the word “day” be interpreted as anything other than a twenty-four hour period…I would argue yes (you'll just have to take my word for it), but in reality, it doesn’t matter how I interpret the word day…the question is, ‘what is a day to God’? You are already convinced that the earth is old, so you must come to the conclusion that a day for God is a long period of time. (Because, you know, we are ALWAYS supposed to interpret the Bible using our presuppositions! It's the basic of hermeneutics. What theories YOU are convinced of, are OBVIOUSLY what is true with God. So believe what feels right. Come to a different conclusion about the age of the earth than me? That's okay! You know that verse that talks about God changing His mind...) God is God of the universe, not just God of the earth. Day as a twenty-four hour period only applies if you are standing on planet earth. I mean, I know that the entire Creation story is focused on what God is doing on earth... come to think of it, the entire BIBLE is focused on what God is doing on earth... but do we really care about details? Come on now. What is the meaning of day if you are in the middle of space? There is no day or night there, so why should we limit God to a limited twenty-four hour earth day? Yeah -- maybe God REFERS to the evening and morning cycle in the days of Creation, but we can conveniently ignore that! Remember, I'm just trying to make you feel comfortable about bending Scripture to fit around your presuppositions.

Now that you know becoming a Christian won't require the surrendering of your worldview which is based on the the fallible word of man, would you like to join the family? So, how do you become a Christian?
You begin by recognizing your human nature. It is true that we are all sinners. Romans 3:23 says,
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
So, are you pretty convinced that you AREN'T a sinner? Then maybe "all" in this verse is relative. If it makes you feel better -- maybe it doesn't apply to you. Think about this. Paul was writing to the Romans. Are you Italian? If not, this doesn't HAVE to apply to you. I know that for all of Church history, this has been interpreted to mean a universal "all", but if you're convinced otherwise -- following the logic of my age-of-the-earth arguments, that's okay!
And Isaiah 59:2 states,
But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.
Therefore, you are separated from God by your sinful nature. (If this sin nature applies to you. See note on Romans 3:23. If the sin nature applies to you, continue. If not, skip to the paragraph that opens with "Welcome to the family!") Think of it as a big gap, with you on one cliff, and God on the other, and a big chasm separating you. There are many ways people try to reach God, such as doing good deeds, or going to church. While these things are important, they will not bridge the gap between you and God. The Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9,
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
The plain reading of the above verse is relatively trustworthy. I, for one, am convinced I can bank my eternity on it's straightforward meaning -- it's not like Genesis 1 & 2. However, if you're unsure about this one...............well, I really can't help you because I've lost all sound footing of consistency and therefore have no steady grounds to stand on.
And in Proverbs 14:12,
There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
You cannot reach God by being good. Although this may seem right to you, (I'm abandoning my "convinced" theory for just a moment to prove a point) it was never His plan. What was His plan? To create a world racked with death (obvious in the geologic column which I am attributing to millions of years) and sin, only to punish the people for introducing death into the world (when they really didn't -- He did, millions of years ago), writing for us a Bible that can be interpreted in a whole host of ways so that you don't really know if what I'm citing is true... He did not create you and leave you without a means to come to Him. God’s remedy is the cross of Christ, and his sacrifice for our sins. I Peter 3:18 says,
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
And I Timothy 2:5,
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
And Romans 5:8,
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Jesus Christ, God’s Son, is the One that can bridge the gap between you and God. It all depends on your response to Him. You must acknowledge your sinfulness, (if you are convinced, that is) trust in Christ’s forgiveness, (ignoring that in our stream of logic, He CREATED you as sinner destined to die and that Adam really had nothing to do with causing sin in this world) and give Him control of your life (worldview not included). If you do that, you will have eternal life. John 3:16 says,
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
And John 5:24,
Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
If we have the same assumptions (Christ is a perfect sacrifice, Christ was equal to the task as He is God, we are actually sinful, "all" is universal, He is the only Way...) these verses work out. If you are convinced otherwise on any of these subjects, that's alright. You don't have to let the Bible be the definitive in these cases - your assumptions can lead the way. That is -- if you interpret this verse like you would Genesis 1&2. Remember, though, I'm not a stickler for consistency.
((...I skipped his stuff on the "salvation prayer" because I don't agree with the method and to refute it would be off topic, so.... on with the end of the article))
What should you do next? This is just the beginning of a wonderful new life in Christ. To deepen this new life you should:
1. Read the Bible on a daily basis to learn more about Christ. (Just remember the hermeneutic principle I taught you. What you are previously convinced of determines what God really means.)
2. Talk to God every day in prayer. (Only if you have the preconceived belief that He actually listens and answers prayer! If not -- this doesn't apply to you, because remember, God's way is based off of your presuppositions, just like in Creation!)
3. Tell others about your new faith in Christ, and demonstrate to them your new life of love and concern for others. (Just remind them that they aren't required to submit their minds to Christ either!)
4. Seek out a good church so that you can fellowship with other Christians.
Welcome to the family! I encourage you to find a good church to attend, and may God bless you as you get to know Him.

You may have other questions that are yet unanswered when it comes to creation. I encourage you to continue your research into creation. May God bless you as you come to a greater understanding of His creation, whether you believe that to be young or old. (Because, now you know, the plain reading and correct interpretation of the very Words of God REALLY doesn't matter in this brand of Christianity but what WE feel is right -- does.)





APO 203 Geology -- Introduction


Monday I began my first online advanced course in Creation Science Apologetics. It's offered by Answers in Genesis. I've loved this class so far. It;s a fast-paced course consisting of a video lecture, articles, book excerpts, exercises, study notes, quizzes and a forum contributed to by my classmates and awesome teacher, Mr. Dudek.

I've already learned a ton. It's harder than I thought it was going to be. I can't wait to see what the future holds in this advanced study of Creation Science Apologetics and Geology.